Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:31:40 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

Hi Sher, Johannes,
thanks for the ideas and comments. It's difficult to listen to each
other especially as we all obviously have different goals in the
collaboration.

I probably came up with the equipment first idea because as composer
I'm used to get a commission from an ensemble, where the framework
(number of instruments) is clear even before I start to think about
what I want to do. Concerning the audio, the technical equipment is
also quite obvious once we decided not to have live performers. But
that's very different with the video. My intention was to throw
something in and then get a better idea of how it could look like, and
then throw it away if we realize it's not what we have in mind or can
agree upon.

As there is still some uncertainty about what should be done, I will
try to explain what my primary goal is (as I'm quite clear about it).
I propose that all of you do the same and then we try to find out if
we can stretch our imagination in order to come up with something
which would fit all our needs.

-------------------**Orm: My Intentions (part 1)**-------------------

I'm primarily interested in research about interaction of
movement/sound/space and movement/visuals with reference to some
properties of my recent multichannel acoustic pieces (focused on the
transformation in realtime). Another important aspect for me is the
development of collaborations with other artists.

Research means conducting tests of:

- How do different sounds work, when they are placed in different
illusionary spaces around someone in reaction of his/her movements
in this room?

- What kind of experience is it, when there is some imagery around the
person defining an optical space which gets transformed (prolonged,
narrowed, widened) according to some movement of this person?
- What happens, if sound and visuals get interconnected (the acoustical
space moves, while the visual widens...)? With those experiences, I might one day be able to do something
performance (content) related, or could clear up my relation to
interaction altogether . But although I'm very
conceptual as an artist, I personally need to practically experience
the space and my emotional reaction to it first to become clear about
what I want, as all this is terra incognita yet (except for the
acoustical part and the potential of it).

So I personally would rather start with some sort of catalogue of
sounds and it's transformations, meet in Dresden and check it out in
combination with visuals. And I would welcome any kind of suggestions,
what to bring (be it language, steel, factory or whatever).
For the time being and as the schedule is tight, I thought about a way
to present the results of this research in an exhibition
situation. And I thought, the most realistic way to do it, is to
concentrate on a setup, where people would be interested in making
experiences with the mentioned relationships on their own. So we would
prepare the most effective visuals/acoustic materials and means of
transformation and maybe already have come up with some idea of how we
relate to it, etc.

The focus of my current idea is not so much content
oriented (not so much concerned with whether it's abstract or not, but
more situation oriented: What would it be, if there are 2 persons,
each in one (similar/identical) room. If one person moves (bends down,
waves his arms...), the acoustic space widens/narrows... like in a
fair, where somebody experiences all sorts of sensations. But he not
only controls his own acoustic space, but also the visual space in the
other room. If the same is done in the other room, but crosslinked, I
hope to get some setup which leads to some sort of communication
between the two. It's important that it's not a spoken word
communication, but a mediated communication: I move in a certain
direction to change my acoustic space (e.g. in order to make it
congruent with my visual perception) and in the same time I trigger
some reaction of the person in the other room, who tries to do the
same from his/her perspective (maybe both movements contradict each
other, leading to some frustration on both sides, as the actions,
which are taken, lead to the opposite results of their intentions due
to its feedback structure). BTW: Although a seemingliy formalistic
approach this could well get interpreted in a political or social way
without having to refer to concrete images/sounds.

-------------------**Orm: My intentions (end of part1)**-------------------

> we still don't have a defined concept of the space(s). for orm i
> believe it is abstract, self-contained and self-modulating. a space
> free of literal reference and association other than the sensory.
that very well could be (and was in my mind at first), but that's not
a condition.

> johannes, i believe you're looking for a reference. a metaphor. me,
> i'm somewhere in the middle. i have a desire to make work that is
> self-referential but often need the metaphor to clarify my own
> choices. [ i was just thinking that this whole series of emails
> between us is like the east west rooms, each impinging on the other
> without consequence (yet). but i digress...

I don't mind metaphors myself to get going (when using them, I
normally try to make them contradictory though) and I use lots of them
in my work. My experience is that my metaphores and associations
differ from the ones, people would use who are exposed to my music
quite drastically, so I don't count on them so much in a process of
collaborative intermedial work (people finding sounds frightning which
I find quite beautiful, warm and soothing). But Sher, I think you
refer more to the term metaphor for describing the general idea or the
setup of the whole installation.

For me, the metaphor of "play with me" (Aufforderung zum Tanz) is somewhat sufficient to get going.>

On the other hand, you do raise an important issue, if we reflect on
> some of thematic or action ideas that were raised by us - and that
> is the question of how any visitor behavior or action is tracked or
> sensed, how precise we can or might be able to do this
That's right. And also, still: How many persons are admitted to each
room and how many sensitive fields should be there?
> (we don't have EyeCon, I personally don;t work with PC platform, so
> we would have to borrow a system and work cross platform?? this
> makes us less independent I think).

I don't think this should restrict us. From what I saw, EyeCon is
pretty much straightforward and we could ask somebody to set it up for
us. And we might have to work cross platform in any case (I normally
prefer linux).

> for the moment I still want to understand the relationship between
> your sound ideas and program and the visual scenarios that we can
> create with Keystroke utilizing image/movie inputs that are a
> mixture of prerecorded and real time (with the real time visuals
> affecting and changing the prerecorded one). Once again, here are my
> questions as to content - space:
> --- the actions performed within these particular rooms (east and west chamber)

For me it would simply be moving around (this could include walking,
or standing in one place and moving the upper body (imagine, you move
the head to the right, the sound follows, but the visuals move in the
opposite direction with the same speed (thats hard to do, I know...)

> - the physical space that defines the chamber (it's real, and the images
> are also real, not virtual although they may imply imaginary space) -
> are there any border areas? spaces within the space? specially defined
> areas?

Yes. All of that (and more?) as I see it preliminarily as a research
project.

> orm is very clear about his technique and i feel that's a useful
> starting point. so, forgetting visuals for the moment, we have these
> two spaces and the sound. what needs to be further clarified is the
> sound itself - is there a literal element in it?> can or should there
> be voices or identifiable words or utterances? orm, you are against
> this?

As I said, I'm not opposed to something. At the end of the email I
will give you some sort of description of my probably most literal
work which could show that I'm not at all opposed to it. But I have
strong reservations in certain cases. And those cases are hard to
define. If we find out that we react similar to semantics and their
use, it's no problem. But I foresee many long emails with uncertain
results before we have come to grips with it. (If I'd use identifyable
words or utterances I'd probably be somewhere between Beckett and the
Coen Brothers ("Fargo" or "The Big Lebowski"), meaning, the metaphor
is there but in a context, where it is far from obvious although
taking place in an absurd and obvious setting (with sometimes drastic
results)). Another (for me) really difficult question is the relation
of utterance and audience. We would have to clarify, what it means, if
somebody in a room releases images of utterances of somebody else by
means of technological equipment (which is always related to
selfreference/foreign reference problems (in short:
communication)). That loaded with (for example) contents of prison
camps/political/personal fate issues is just too hot for me to get
tackled with three (yet) foreign persons with different backgrounds in
three months time. If I don't have to, I'd better avoid it altogether.
> can you tell us the quality of the sound you imagine - without visual association?

I wouldn't use synthetic sounds, but transformed recorded sounds. They
probably aren't single pitched, but rather unidentifiable in pitch
(much like the sounds in the installation of the violin piece), or
noiselike textures, or high, glass-like ringing sounds or
whatever. All probaly of some associative nature (although not in an
obvious way, what is associated). But it could be any sound, as
said. The general aspect would probably be something without
ostinatos (patterns), flowing sounds which define space,
constellations of percussive sounds (steel sounds, anything), moving in space.

The main property would be the possibility to define space with
them. So they have to be dense to get a certain depth, or they have to
get reflections when they are percussive in order to be identifiable
as being in some space.

> if the sound fields in the spaces are responsible
> for all the data control (through EyeCon) then what are the images?
> where are the images? this is assuming that there is free movement
> (walking around) within each space controlling the sound and image sphere.

> if a table is brought in then the entire space changes and there is a
> focal point. this point would need to have dynamic qualities and
> control. or perhaps not. perhaps the communication between the spaces
> and in each contained space happens everywhere but the table. here
> contact is analog, eye-to-eye. a sort of embedded subjective reality
> within the external world(s).

I agree about the focal point, but could also imagine that as one
(additional?) way to do it.
> i don't know, i'm just trying to sort out where to go and where to
> compromise our intentions and aesthetics. collaboration via email is
> very difficult and i have to say, this has so far, been a valiant
> effort. got to run now, hope i haven't further muddled things.

Not at all.
Thanx to all of you,
all the best
Orm

P.S.: Here's the description of my most literal piece so far :=)
In 1994 I wrote an interactive piece for piano and computer focusing
on the TV quiz-show "Wheel of Fortune". In the beginning it used
recorded fragments of the show, then text, the pianist was "playing"
(his strings were damped with rubber so you could hear one spoken word
per key he was playing). The Text referred to the quiz show (the
pianist trying to decide, which letter to choose) and transformed
gradually into excerpts of Beckett Texts (I used Markov chains to
generate the morphed texts--it's quite astonishing). It's at the same
time hilarious and very serious in the framework of ritual, repetition
and its religious implications. Starting from there, the pianist
starts to discover his instrument in a new way (taking out the
rubbers, starting to play, occasionally triggering sequences in the
loudspeakers) until he becomes something like a victim of his own
interaction and in the end playing with (and talking to) himself in a
self-generative process with one loudspeaker on the grandpiano,
projecting into the piano with its back to the audience, shutting out
the audience and transforming it to some voyeur of some perverted form
of communication and total isolation. It should create a feeling of
embarrassment on the side of the audience to watch such an intimate
dialog while being closed out.

Date:
Thu, 18 Apr 2002 04:04:03 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer


I just reread both your letters from Wednesday, which i found, upon
reflection, very helpful indeed, and I must say here that i have the
utmost respect for both of you and the way the whole dialogue has
evolved. I think it's been a steady and evolving work development.....
and outlining and closely defining your intentions, Orm, has been
rewarding.

<<<I'm primarily interested in research about interaction of
movement/sound/space and movement/visuals with reference to some
properties of my recent multichannel acoustic pieces (focused on the
transformation in realtime). Another important aspect for me is the
development of collaborations with other artists. >>
You point out that we perhaps need to make more concrete decisions once
we meet physically in Dresden, seeing that workshop as a testing stage,
and I agree.

<<<- How do different sounds work, when they are placed in different
illusionary spaces around someone in reaction of his/her movements
in this room?

- What kind of experience is it, when there is some imagery around the
person defining an optical space which gets transformed (prolonged,
narrowed, widened) according to some movement of this person?
- What happens, if sound and visuals get interconnected (the acoustical
space moves, while the visual widens...)?

Here one could add the commentaries that Sher sent in reply to my questions about the nature of the space and the kind of (content) physical or social interactions we'd like to encourage..

.>>>Although as I said in the previous email, I like the idea of the
>tables (and especially what Sher mentioned about the dinner party), I
>don't really like the situation of people sitting down in this
>installation. I also was thinking that moving around was the main way
>of changing the behaviour of the images/sounds. The image of tables
>struck me most because of the confrontative situation, which might be
>interesting to trigger response and to encourage the people to
>correspond.

>> i would scale the image down, small and perhaps mobile. i'm
>> not sure there needs to be an intimate one-on-one. the spaces can
>> become intimate with the memory and density of the sound.
>>
>
>I agree (partly). The one-to-one relationship could be interesting, if
>the relation of movement to the transformation of sound/imagery was
>transparent in a way that it was some sort of real dialog between the
>two. Like one person moving into the corner of the room makes the
>sound/imagery focus there, but travel to another location in the other
>room (or become hardly audible/visible or whatever) in a way that
>stimulates some sort of reaction by the other person. But that again
>is a lot of work to be thought out and it would have to get tested.

>Okay. I think we've had good exchange on all this. Why don't we try to
agree, at this point, that we have indeed laid down the outlines of our
project, perhaps taking the SOUND dimension (Orm) as fairly well
developed conceptually. We also have the idea of the two/double rooms
and their interconnection. We could formulate, for the project proposal
due at the end of April, that we have decided on this as our working
platform, and we could submit architectural sketches of what the
installations might look like (those of course we might want to do, I'll
start some sketches this coming weekend).

Perhaps we can avoid aesthetic concerns about different content ideas by
leaving the installation-idea, at this point, fairly open for the
development in July, so I'm quite content to not worry about the
referential side (whether concrete or metaphorical), and trust that
these possibilities will emerge, and at this point I think the use, or
the generation, of visuals (Sher, what do you think?) can be conceived
very modestly, we will generate images FROM the people and their
interaction in/between the two rooms. Perhaps, if we take the recursive
idea for a moment, some images might be "saved" by our Keystroke system
or additional digital video systems (of people action who were in the
rooms before), and they may "enter" (as refuse, as left over, as
remainders) into the possible visuals that are generated by movement of
newly arriving visitor in space, or action of visitor. A room with "ghosts".

To stop and simplify here, I'd take it (from Orm) that you think that a
person's movement in one room (if we have one in each, or two visitors
in each room at a given time) will inevitably create an "emergent"
situation, like any social situation where I enter a subway late at
night, and there is another person already in it, or I enter a room, and
how do I move/behave in it, knowing/sensing there is another person also
there. This could be interesting, since the changes in perception or
imagination of what this space is and where it is will be insinuated by
the sounds. As the visitors move or act in a certain way, or pick
something up or lay it down, visuals may start to appear (initially the
rooms are quite dark, or dim, and they only emerge with visuals when the
visitors are active, not passive)..

Of course bending an arm, well, that
doesn't do it for me, turning a head? well, we'd have to see in situ
once we are there and have built the space, and create a physical
environment that invites more than the simplest or most banal audience
action (i'm not happy with people "feeling" invisible trigger lines, as
I have seen in Palindr's workshops).

I feel that the proposition " construction of virtual environments"
means, as research and development, that we don't have that many models
(the CAVE??, oh what a let down) - and so I feel we are able to take it
step by step and explore the potentials of emergence. (sound
transformations of space, space extensions of visual-concrete space
(Sher -- "trans-local prop" - the elongated table linking real site
and remote site) is indeed a brilliant image for me to think about),
including exploring how our visitors will behave.

( I have tried to write about this before, there is this issue of the
"unsuspecting visitor" in an interactive environment, whom we would like
to "do" things.......... it's not so easy)

Finally, then, my only insistence would be that I be supported by you in
the wish to "construct" or build a spatial environment (the rooms) that
is physically or architecturally interesting and particular, and that
may (through the design) imply or invite exploration........ after all,
an empty square room is an empty square room, and why would it invite
anyone to do very much, even if the sound is rich or stimulating. That's
why I had been discussing the question of the "social" in the space -
namely whether we have a strong proposition to our visitors to
participate in the emergences.......within a given environment, and for
me the environment is hyperplastic, involving textures, color,
tangibles, body, cognitive processes.

So the question of the visuals that may appear and disappear, and what
it is that is seen, will be somewhat important, unless we do not use
live cameras but sensors that activate images and graphics that are
non-realistic (blurred, distorted, abstracted painting-projections).
Right now I think it would inspire me to just try out what happens if I
enter one of our rooms, and found myself (intimately) in the "same
space" with a stranger (in the other room, whom I observe here, assuming
that s/he will see me also. How do I behave now?

i'll stop here,
regards
Johannes

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:06:08 +0200
From: sher doruff

hi orm, johannes,
sorry to be so rushed with this now but i'm out of town on
presentations through the weekend with little time to concentrate on
truly interesting things, like this process of ours. just have to say
that i agree the proposal should be vague as to the content - that
can develop. we're actually fairly clear about our trajectory and
that's already a minor miracle. i do like your last statement johannes
>Right now I think it would inspire me to just try out what happens if I
>enter one of our rooms, and found myself (intimately) in the "same
>space" with a stranger (in the other room, whom I observe here, assuming
that s/he will see me also. How do I behave now?
and i agree that the visuals can be solely of the people themselves.
apologies for the brevity. i do think we're on a fine track.
all the best,
sher

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:03:09 +0200
From: (Orm Finnendahl)

Dear Sher, Johannes,

I also think, we're at a very good point now thanks to your
constructive ideas.

If my perception is correct, Johannes, it is very important for you to
use images of more or less identifyable persons in these rooms getting
the visitor somehow socially and perceptionally involved as there is
some direct affective relation between him and the images (and in the
long run you are looking for some metaphor for the affective
situation, the visitor is in). I think that's perfectly fine and I can
deal with that. I would add that the visual space has to get
transformed in its physical dimensions (in a way that it uses trompe
l'oeil for example) as well (as that is the center of what I'm
interested in musically). That has been said already, but I'm
mentioning it as I don't know, how to do that with images of
persons. Maybe they could be set into spaces which get transformed or
the images themselves transform in a way to suggest a different
spatial orientation. Any ideas?

I also think it's good not to have a simple box, but a location
interesting to explore. I saw some installations just working with
halftransparent veils hanging from the ceiling in different places
functioning as "walls" (this was very fashionable a couple of years
ago), being projected on with slide projectors, some of them moving
slowly. With the veils disturbed by air turbulences stimulated by the
visitors, the images got distorted creating some interesting spatial
relations.Now: What's next? We have to do a proposal and I'm quite busy next
week starting this weekend (I'll be gone for the following weekend
including Monday (27.4.-30.4.) and have to prepare quite a bit). In
addition we have to come to terms about July. As I mentioned before I
probably can't come to Dresden before the 24th. What about you?

Yours,
Orm

P.S.: Additional remarks (a little off topic)
> environment that invites more than the simplest or most banal audience
> action (i'm not happy with people "feeling" invisible trigger lines, as
> I have seen in Palindr's workshops).
I agree, although I would love to dive into a piece just working with invisible trigger lines one day. I guess I feel challenged as most examples are so completely unimaginative considering the possibilities of a very simple network with a limited set of nodes (triggerlines). But again, I'm repeating myself and nobody would disagree anyway. In
addition that could only be done in a performance as it has to get composed quite carefully. For a visitor it would get boring quickly.

Did anybody of you ever experience the video loop by Dan Graham? Although extremely simple, in a cube with just mirror, Camera and Monitor, it's still one of my favorite pieces as it is so effective. Do you agree?

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:48:35 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

Dear Sher, Orm:

<Did anybody of you ever experience the video loop by Dan Graham?>

Well, I think yes, at the last documenta (Rooms for viewing with video,
somthing like that, his "rooms with a view" (with mirrors and closed
circuit video) are older, go back to 80s and 70s, certainly interesting
at the time, right now I think I am bored with closed circuit partly
because seeing myself being seen, or the theme of surveillance, is
thorough exhausted, and I think it was also a large part of the machine
time exhibition on technologies they had at V2 in Rotterdam last year
(Sher, you saw that?), and many people told me how cold and alienating
they found that show.

In any case, I am very pleased that we have reached such a good
understanding, concerning our interest in an interactve environment
(including, all right, Orm, what you noted last time, namely your
interest in a more imaginative use of invisible trigger lines....), the
spaces, the transformations of spatial realities though sound, and
through visuals, trompe l'oeil, extensions and translocations of the
room-reality (whose content or appearance can be developed and can
"involve persons/visitors who are socially and perceptionally involved
as there is some direct affective relation between him and the images (and in the
long run you are looking for some metaphor for the affective
situation, the visitor is in)".......yes. (and the visuals can or could also include more abstract
distortions of images and the representations of persons in space, this
space and the other space, I am open to all of these transformations).
I will continue to think about what I wrote concerning behavior in such
rooms.

Now two very important issues:

1) The proposal:

I wrote to Thomas Dumke to indicate that the three of us are working on
submitting a proposal for "EAST BY WEST", and asked for specifications
on the project proposal & and how do we determine the budget issues?
One of us has to prepare the text, I can work on it, if you are both
busy, and send you a draft, based on our conversations and discussions.
Do you wish to mention other contributory collaborators (Tom Demeyer?)

Do we need to ask for assistance or lab support from Blue lab or
Frieder Weiss?

Budget: I thought we need to mention a production budget (composition),
construction/materials budget for the installation (screens, lumber,
glass, etc), lights, projectors, sound equipment lay out, and the
artistic fees, how much shoudl we ask for? 15,ooo Euro?

2). The dates: I was worried when you mentioned , Orm, that you can't
come to Dresden until the 24th.

I mentioned earlier that the Hellerau workphase:is: July 13 - 28.

This ios the time we would need to construct the instllations (two rooms
!) - and I am thinking of these two rooms as going to be looking quite
differently, different textures altogether). sound development, visuals
and testing of our programming, I think we need 2 weeks at least.
If you come later, Orm, then you'd have to prepare the programming and
sound elements carefully, perhaps give us something to listen to in
early July, and Sher and I can start with the constructions (I will work
on designs this weekend), and then do all our testing and exploration
when you arrive? can you come a few days earlier?

What other times of connecting might there be? or should we trust our
exchange online?
best wishes

Johannes

Date: Saturday may 20
From: Orm Finnendahl

Dear Sher, Johannes,

excuse my late reply.

Its a good idea to contact Thomas first. I don't think it has to be
perfect by the weekend and next week after Tuesday I'll have enough
time to participate.

> One of us has to prepare the text, I can work on it, fi you are noth
> busy, and send you a draft, based on our conversations and discussions.
>
> Do you wish to mention other contributory collaborators (Tom Demeyer?)
> Do we need to ask for assistance or lab support from Blue lab or
> Frieder Weiss?

I think it could be sufficient to mention that we plan to use soft/and
hardware and that we might need assitance.
>
> Budget:
I think the latter figure gets more realistic, but that has to be estimated
based on our equipment needed. What about our artistic fees?
Considering the amount of work it could be compared to writing a
chamber music piece which normally (on low to medium budget
productions) pays around 3.000 Euro for the composer. This alone would
sum up to 9.000 Euro for all of us. In addition we have to travel. Or
is that unrealistic?
>
> 2). The dates: I was worried when you mentioned , Orm, that you can't
> come to Dresden until the 24th.
>
> I mentioned earlier that the Hellerau workphase:is: July 13 - 28.
> This is the time we would need to construct the installations (two rooms !) - and I am thinking of these >two rooms as going to be looking quite differently, different textures altogether). sound development, >visuals and testing of our programming, I think we need 2 weeks at least.
>
I already mentioned that problem in Nürnberg. Actually the performance
is with palindrome and part of a pretty big event I'm organizing for
the 23rd of July (I also wonder how Palindrome will do Hellerau when
they have to prepare Berlin). I suggested in Nürnberg that the three
of us find a time to meet independently of the proposed dates by Klaus
Nicolai. Is that possible? I could extend my stay in Dresden beyond
the 28th.
>
> If you come later, Orm, then you'd have to prepare the programming and
> sound elements carefully, perhaps give us something to listen to in
> early July, and Sher and I can start with the constructions (I will work
> on designs this weekend), and then do all our testing and exploration
> when you arrive? can you come a few days earlier?
Although everything has to (and hopefully will be) prepared carefully,
I absolutely agree that there is more than one week needed. I will
send soundexamples around as soon as I have some results handy. If we
can't find more time in the end of July, we could maybe find other dates in
August/September.
>
> What other times of connecting might there be? or should we trust our
> exchange online?

I guess partly we will have to trust that, but I'd much prefer
additional meetings. Here in Berlin I could probably use the
electronic studio of the Technical University. They have excellent
multichannel audio studios, but I don't know about the visual
capabilities. There are a couple of macs and a small video beam but
there is no real space to build up installations. When are you in the
States or in Europe, Johannes? Sher, do you have facilities at the
Waag?

Concerning Dan Graham: As far as I know, the video loop is one of his
earliest pieces (including mirror and 8 second delay). I share your
concerns about closed loop situations, Johannes and my mentioning
didn't intend to revive the seventies. I guess I just wanted to state
that it is very well possible to do an interesting work with a square
box, a mirror, a camera, neonlight and a monitor and sometimes find
that very refreshing (e.g. compared to Bill Viola's pathetic
pseudoreligious voodoo in his show here in Berlin's Guggenheim).
That's all for today,

Yours,
Orm

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:54:34 +0200
From: sher doruff

in agreement with your suggestions johannes but have to add a glitch
on my end. i thought i was free from july 14 but have just had a
mandatory seminar scheduled until 21 july in london which i cannot
wiggle out of. this may make things even more difficult, especially
for you johannes. i don't know how realizable this project is in one
week. we could give it a try, calling it a protoype but it's very
squeezed.

before i attempt to feedback on the other issues i guess we have to
take a serious look at the constraints and define what is and what is
not feasible.( i'm very sorry about this but it's my PhD evaluation
seminar and unalterable). awaiting your brilliant ideas,

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:56:21 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

what about the time after the 28th?

OrmSubject: Re: East by West, summer dates
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:08:57 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

hallo Orm, Sher:

thanks for filling me in on the schedule problems. I am not too worried
and have faith in what we can accomplish.
I don't mind arriving early and starting to work and prepare materials
for constructions, and doing video proejction tests, microphone tests,
lighting tests, etc

(all assuming that they will actually invite us to do this!!!).
Hellerau workphase:is: July 13 - 28.
> This is the time we would need to construct the installations (two rooms) - and I am thinking of these
two rooms as going to be looking quite
>differently, different textures altogether). sound development, visuals
and testing of our programming, I think we need 2 weeks at least.I take it that the earliest Orm can arrive is 24th, and Sher around 22nd, yes?

well that is all right, if you could somehow manage to stay a few more
days, say, until the 31st. or August 2. I don't see why this shouldn't
be possible at Hellerau.

When I get there on the 13th, I can start the physical work, and
consult/meet/talk with Blue Lab and my friends there (Jörg Sonntag,
etc), and Jörg is also usually the one who has the leads to equipment,
and I can talk this over with Klaus Nicolai also.
I mentioned earlier that I arrive in Germany around June 24, and will be
in Europe until September 24.

I can visit Sher in Amsterdam, or visit you in Berlin, Orm. I had hoped
to visit STEIM anyway, or learn to work Keystroke with Sher, need to
write to Netochka Nezvanova to find out. .......

Proposal:
Budget: I thought we need to mention a production budget
(composition),
> construction/materials budget for the installation (screens, lumber,
> glass, etc), lights, projectors, sound equipment lay out, and the
> artistic fees, how much should we ask for? 15,ooo Euro?
>>I think the latter figure gets more realistic, but that has to be estimated
based on our equipment needed. What about our artistic fees?
Considering the amount of work it could be compared to writing a
chamber music piece which normally (on low to medium budget
productions) pays around 3.000 Euro for the composer. This alone would
sum up to 9.000 Euro for all of us. In addition we have to travel. Or
is that unrealistic?>>>>>I think you are right, we should calculate with 9000 for fees, plus
transportation (Amsterdam-Dresden, Berlin-Dresden, Schmelz-Dresden, ca.
900.)(This figure extends if we meet a second time in Amstedam/Berlin
and some of us need to travel more). Plus construction, 2500 : Plus
equipment (rental, purchase) 2500 (?). The equipment side is not
clear, if we bring our laptops, and they give us projectors and lights;
we should rather call it "production costs" for materials and rentals
we may need to accomplish the sound/video production and documentation.
dv tapes, etc?

I wait to hear whether Thomas has guidelines for this, otherwise I'll
draft 14.900 or more into our proposal.

*****

So, I stop here, not without mentioning that I spend 2 days on the
drawing board, and find the process exciting. So far i have sampled,
not constructed a design yet, and I enclose two exemplar
installation-spaces I have been reflecting on, one is built out of
light, airy curved material (wire, chinese paper or screen material, and
could, if I make the new design, include hanging/suspended plexiglass
sheets that I would like to propose using as reflectors). The suspension
also interests me a lot.

I will scan the east and west wing soon and draw the real spaces. The
west wing, in the more dilapidated part of Hellerau Festspielhaus, I
envision differently, and so far I am working on ground/gravitational
space and a possible texture (sand) that would allow for a bocchia game.
I think it would be wonderful if the "imaginary" rules and the visitors'
enactments for a bocchia game were tracked and captured by realtime
webcams and be transmitted to the airial textures of the (possibly)
domed space in the east wing (visuals) -- for the sound this opens many
possibilities, no?) The one speace would be semi-"closed" - the other
would be actually open, under different (dim, colored) light (downlight
to floor), while the chinese paper sculpture-space is in a more
white/light environment. I imagine them as evening and morning spaces.
I also of course think of the "bocchia" as a game that involves
"triggering", touching/bouncing off, changing directions, pushing"
others out of place, territorial "games", involving kinetics and a kind
of "social etiquette" (how to bounce your neighbor off your lawn).
There might be small "markers" in the sand, for imagnary territoires.
Now I want to think of the "action" behavior that might be solicited in
the "light" space? what do you think?
(what d'you think of France elections?)

best wishes
Johannes Birringer

Images attached (sandbox, Haube)

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 08:44:04 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

Hi Sher, Johannes,

Johannes wrote
> I think you are right, we should calculate with 9000 for fees, plus
> transportation (Amsterdam-Dresden, Berlin-Dresden, Schmelz-Dresden, ca.
> 900.)(This figure extends if we meet a second time in Amstedam/Berlin
> and some of us need to travel more). Plus construction, 2500 : Plus
> equipment (rental, purchase) 2500 (?). The equipment side is not
> clear, if we bring our laptops, and they give us projectors and lights;
> we should rather call it "production costs" for materials and rentals
> we may need to accomplish the sound/video production and documentation.
> dv tapes, etc?
>
> I wait to hear whether Thomas has guidelines for this, otherwise I'll
> draft 14.900 into our proposal.

The rental seems a bit low, at least for the audio. 16 Loudspeakers
are needed and I don't know the exact rental price, but dont think
they go for much less than 20-50 Euro/piece/day. In addition there are
two computers with multichannel io cards (I probably can't provide
those) and MIDI/network. For an installation of one week that alone
could easily go up way higher than 2.500. I would suggest we do a
proposal specifying what is needed rather than putting up a
budget. They should first decide, whether they want it and then we can
check out the actual costs.
>
*****
>
> what do you think?
I like your ideas. I'm only concered about the function of the gizmos
(boccia etc.). They could lead to some distraction in a way, that the
sounds and projected images are perceived as illustrative or
background (I don't think it changes that much to use the actual
bocchia sounds). I don't know, how some action in that field could be
linked to movement of sound and images in a way, which would be
perceived as non arbitrary or non peripheral. Maybe if we could
crosslink the two spaces in a way that the game is played across the
rooms (the real boccia ball moving in a projected live image of the
other space?).
>
> (what d'you think of France elections?)
Not surprising but sickening as always. On the same weekend was an
election in Sachsen-Anhalt which was a Waterloo for the SPD and the
Green party and the ultra right wing Schill Party running for
Parliament for the first time missed entering only by 0.2%.Yours,
Orm

Tue, 23 Apr 2002 15:17:33 +0200
From: sher doruff <sher@mail.waag.org>

hello,
this seems to be moving along!
>
>I take it that the earliest Orm can arrive is 24th, and Sher around
>22nd, yes?
Yes
>well that is all right, if you could somehow manage to stay a few more
>days, say, until the 31st. or August 2. I don't see why this shouldn't
>be possible at Hellerau.
maybe. not absolutely sure yet.
>
>When I get there on the 13th, I can start the physical work, and
>consult/meet/talk with Blue Lab and my friends there (Jörg Sonntag,
>etc), and Jörg is also usually the one who has the leads to equipment,
>and I can talk this over with Klaus Nicolai also.
>
>I mentioned earlier that I arrive in Germany around June 24, and will be
>in Europe until September 24.
>
>I can visit Sher in Amsterdam, or visit you in Berlin, Orm. I had hoped
>to visit STEIM anyway, or learn to work Keystroke with Sher, need to
>write to Netochka Nezvanova to find out. .......
steim is closed in july but it's still possible. problem is again my
schedule. i'm in london from 5 july to 20 july unless i can alter it
a bit but i doubt it. hellerau will be my much needed holiday time
(so i hope it's not too stressful ;-)). there will be some KeyStroke
artists in town in july who might be able to help if i'm not around.
do you need a place to stay in a'dam? the steim guesthouse has a
vacancy in july i think. we should get these dates clear and i can
reserve you a room if needed.
>
>Proposal:
>
> Budget: I thought we need to mention a production budget
>(composition),
>> construction/materials budget for the installation (screens, lumber,
>> glass, etc), lights, projectors, sound equipment lay out, and the
>> artistic fees, how much should we ask for 10,000 Euro? 15,ooo Euro?
>
>>>I think the latter gets more realistic, but that has to be estimated
>based on our equipment needed. What about our artistic fees?
>Considering the amount of work it could be compared to writing a
>chamber music piece which normally (on low to medium budget
>productions) pays around 3.000 Euro for the composer. This alone would
>sum up to 9.000 Euro for all of us. In addition we have to travel. Or
>is that unrealistic?>>>>>
>
>I think you are right, we should calculate with 9000 for fees, plus
>transportation (Amsterdam-Dresden, Berlin-Dresden, Schmelz-Dresden, ca.
>900.)(This figure extends if we meet a second time in Amstedam/Berlin
>and some of us need to travel more). Plus construction, 2500 : Plus
>equipment (rental, purchase) 2500 (?). The equipment side is not
>clear, if we bring our laptops, and they give us projectors and lights;
>we should rather call it "production costs" for materials and rentals
>we may need to accomplish the sound/video production and documentation.
>dv tapes, etc?
also important is the network of course. and there are some
constraints. static ip's, outside a firewall and routers (for
udp/rtp). we need a G4 in each room for the beamers and audio out.
if we don't need the internet then a LAN would be more efficient,
requiring another computer to run an OSX server (could be an iMac,
etc).
then there's in the interaction - sensors? cameras? add'l software?
>
>I wait to hear whether Thomas has guidelines for this, otherwise I'll
>draft 14.900 into our proposal.
>
>*****
>So, I stop here, not without mentioning that I spend 2 days on the
>drawing board, and find the process exciting. So far i have sampled,
>not constructed a design yet, and I enclose two exemplar
>installation-spaces I have been reflecting on, one is built out of
>light, airy curved material (wire, chinese paper or screen material, and
>could, if I make the new design, include hanging/suspended plexiglass
>sheets that I would like to propose using as reflectors). The suspension
>also interests me a lot.
>
>I will scan the east and west wing soon and draw the real spaces. The
>west wing, in the more dilapidated part of Hellerau Festspielhaus, I
>envision differently, and so far I am working on ground/gravitational
>space and a possible texture (sand) that would allow for a bocchia game.
>I think it would be wonderful if the "imaginary" rules and the visitors'
>enactments for a bocchia game were tracked and captured by realtime
>webcams and be transmitted to the airial textures of the (possibly)
>domed space in the east wing (visuals) -- for the sound this opens many
>possibilities, no?)

The one speace would be semi-"closed" - the other
>would be actually open, under different (dim, colored) light (downlight
>to floor), while the chinese paper sculpture-space is in a more
>white/light environment. I imagine them as evening and morning spaces.
>I also of course think of the "bocchia" as a game that involves
>"triggering", touching/bouncing off, changing directions, pushing"
>others out of place, territorial "games", involving kinetics and a kind
>of "social etiquette" (how to bounce your neighbor off your lawn).
>There might be small "markers" in the sand, for imagnary territories. Now I want to think of the "action" behavior that might be solicited in the "light" space?>>

i like the sand and the bocchia but have to point a technical eye
towards the tracking. this is the kind of thing that could take a LOT
of time figuring out and getting right. where are the cameras
positioned? what are they tracking and how? speed of the balls?
collisions? gestures? and to what end? this kind of thing is very
difficult to do in a large space. and we're thinking of two.
KeyStroke tracking is primitive, not as fast or as accurate as
eyeCon or softVNS. something to keep in mind. i have some fears that
this is a beautiful two month project, but not at all feasible in one
or two weeks. we would most likely need another tracking system to
send midi data to KS for the image . anyway, not to be negative, i'm
very enthusiastic but ultimately practical. if we decide to continue
with your conceptual approach johannes, i'd be inclined to add a
fourth member to our team (either niels bogaards or eric redlinger
from keyStroke) to assist with all the technical details of streams
and networks and possible tracking. i'd be happy to work in an
intermediary capacity between you and orm and focus on the networked
content. if de waag will support this then they would take the fee
(say 3000, for both of us for 10 days). does this make any sense?
.
>more later

,sher

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:36:26 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

dear Orm, Sher

:I know you are all busy, just wanted to touch base to thank Sher for
sending me a tightly organized equipment list, and perhaps Orm you can
go over yours again and tell me whether anything is missing

I created a website/pathstructure under my company's website, it's only
accessible to the three of us who know the address. I wanted to organize
the material visually, that helps me to make connections, and stimulates
me, as we continue to make sketches, etc

I also felt it would be a service for us and the collaboration to build an "ARCHIVE" of our
communications (under the textfiles), all letters that were exchanged
have been archived. And from this text material I will work on the
proposal for our project this weekend. If you quickly glance at the
"sketches site" you will see my preliminary drawings of the two raw
sites.

Meanwhile Thomas and Klaus sent out the German text of the "guidelines."


Do we have all the names of collaborators (Sher: "my idea of bringing
another KS team person is pragmatic ").

Klaus's second letter contained a "Struktur einer Internet-Diskussionsplattform", a structure for a discussion platform, Sher, with topics. I am sure the english text will follow.
with best wishes
Johannes

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:49:44 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

dear Orm, Sher

;thanks for both of your recent replies to the website, I will go now and
update it. It really took me all weekend, could not finish the draft
until now, so I am sorry to be a bit late, and you only have a day
to peruse and make corrections/amendations, because we need to send
something in by April 31 (their date, it doesn't exist, but I take it to
mean May 1).

So right now I have a proposal for you to read with the tech list,
budget (we can leave the money figures out if you prefer), and a few
diagrams
Prototype A, empty space, then two diagrams with sculptural
installation).

I think the idea of the "content" or physical appearance of our spaces
is the least resolved aspect, especially since we would have to talk
more about the possible interactivity (controllers) in the spaces. We
also never defined our own role, are we "programmers'/'designers" and
also performers who are present in the installation (I assume so, the
way I understand Keystroke)?

So let me know what you think. I would be pleased if we could
delineate our concept and our discussion on the content of the
experience, because, as I mentioned before, I am not so happy with
purely technical proposals that speak about interactivity and triggers
and such in a formal-technological manner.

regards
Johannes

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:24:53 +0200
From: sher doruff

my johannes, what a marvel. this is quick work and very well done.
this extra person ... it depends on the scope.
perhaps we could call it tentative technical assistance - Niels
Bogaards. very nice colleague of mine. very used to facilitating artists.
i hope you're enjoying the conceptual process. a little envious that
you can spare the time. i wish i had the mental space for this kind
of work at the moment.
more later,
sher

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:54:44 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

Dear Johannes,
what a tremendous work! I'm very sorry to be so abrupt, I just wanted
to let you know that I really appreciate your effort and will be with
you tomorrow night (and will take a closer look then...)
All the best to you both,



Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:57:39 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

Dear Johannes,
everything seems to be o.k. concerning the audio equipment. There is a
possibility that a third computer could be used for the mapping of
control data (that could be a Linux PC) but I'm not sure about that
yet (I didn't make any benchmarks). I can't really comment on the
money and would suggest to leave it open. It should be stated, that
the rental fees and the supply of equipment should be checked first.
Nevertheless: Thanks a lot for this huge amount of work, Johannes!
Yours,
Orm

P.S.: What do you mean with the word "asymmetrical"? I always thought
that symmetry was one of the key features of the project?

Date: Wed, 31 April 2002 04:05:15 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

well, dear colleagues, now I am really exhausted now. I thought it better to send the
proposal not only in english but in German, and so I
translated the whole thing, and redesigned our website, and since today
is the deadline, I sent everything in.

(Forgive my more funky German, I enjoyed a slightly more ironic tone in
that version).

Orm sent in his approval, and small amendation. I didn't hear from you,
Sher, and I am sure there will be things that I wrote that yoy may find
too "sculptural" and fantastic (I added the notion of the
"transobjects,' but actually it was you, Sher, you mentioned something
like this first when you spoke of the table in your recent
teleconference and how it became 'translocal". You may notice that I
added a few terms or ideas into our proposal that relate
to the debate on virtuality which I hope will take place soon.
I felt our conceptual discssion had broached this subjects anyhow. If
there are things you want to change/add, Sher, please do write, and it
goes into our website.
thanks
Johannes

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 03:42:42 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

Dear Sher, Orm;

you heard the good news that the EU money has been granted to the
RealTime project.

So now we have to waut and hear about their decision
about our plan. I've set aside the Dresden workshop time/schedule, anyhow, and was able
to chat with two dancer/artist friends (Sibylle, from Dresden/Berlin),
and Asye (Duesseldorf/Istanbul), who expressed interest in helping me
with the installation construction while I am waiting for your arrival.
That way I won't be all alone. I am also in communication contact with
the BlueLab friends (Joerg).

How was your concert with Pldr., Orm? Sher, are you doing okay?

A brief update:
Last weekend I was invited to the HyperMedia Studio (Program on Digital
Cultures, UCLA) in Los Angeles, and met with artists from Latin America,
all of whom work with digital media and performance or installation
concepts, and it was a wonderful, rich meeting, reminding me also of the
fact that sometimes our perspectives and referenece points are too
limited (to the West).

http://digitalcultures.isop.ucla.edu/RePerCuTe/

I am making progress in my thinking/research on real time systems, have
learnt some Max/Msp/Jit, and used Max/Msp and Keystroke for the furst
time extensively for a two hour continuous telepresence performance this
past Monday (Keystroke alone, not multi-user), and the event was a small
revelation for me, of sorts. I have written to my lab team about it,
and although you are probably too busy, I might include my
letter/reflections to them at the bottom (I write this yesterday), so
you know where I am at this moment.

I have reserved studio time in Amsterdam for August 14-19, Sher, for
BigEye orientation, and connecting with you.

At this point, I would like to ask you, Sher, to send us some visuals of
your recent work or describe a little more how you see the real time us
of video/media (visual) in the installation plan we have devised.
Orm, I am not sure whether you have any sound files (small) that you
could send us for the website or for listening/thinking about.
I hope you are all well. My departure date is set: June 15 I arrive in
Schmelz, Germany.
with best wishes
Johannes

Fri, 17 May 2002 10:37:09 +0200
Orm Finnendahl

Hi Johannes, Sher,
I'm on my way to depart for the weekend.

The performance with Palindrome is scheduled for 30/31. of May. Of
course I can send some soundfiles. The whole thing works very nicely
but more of that after the weekend (the following 2 weeks will also be
quite tight with preparation as the program is still in alpha stage
but I will take some time as I'm also preparing music for a dance show
end of June and have to do excerpts of my current work for that
anyway).

I'd like to hear more about L.A., Johannes.
All the best and a nice weekend,
Orm

Wed, 22 May 2002 01:45:04 -0400
From: Johannes Birringer

hallo Orm, Sher

thanks for your letter, Orm, good luck with the end of May
production....... I got a poster from Joerg Sonntag about the evening,
I think your piece is the last on the concert, and it will be webcast ,
so i will try to check in.......

My weekend at the Hypermedia studio (UCLA) was terrific, getting to
know some very fine digital artists and also a musician (David Baudry)
from LA who seems to work on some interesting real time processes, but
most of the artists came from theatre, dance, visual art, one, Bia
Medeiros, from Brasilia, specialzies in online internet performance and
is part of the collective Corpos Informaticos. Very sophistiaced work
they do, and theoretically grounded also, they have published stuff on
their projects and their concepts.

Renato Cohen was there too, him I
already mentioned when hje came to vsiit me, he is the one who works
with shamans and the schizophrenic people. the most complex and interesting proposals (for interactive
installations) came from a Mexican artist, Tania Aedo ("Drag.02" --
she is creating wearable + interactive costumes for audiences to try on
(sensors attached), and try out "different subjectivities, personae,
roles," like real-time/space avatars); and from Mariano Sardon, a
young physicist/computer programmer from Buenos Aires, whose plan for a
telematic exhibition in two cities (Los Angeles and Buenos Aires),
involving sensors and midi data sent across the web for real time impact
on what is seen (video/text) in the projections on both ends was
terrific and close to what we might want to accomplish at some point if
wer can establish a telepresence link to another room.

Mostly, the meeting was created to generate dialogue, and exposure for
the artists from the south, and the organiser, Fabian Wagmister, now has
secured funding to create a multimedia center( a small ZLM) in Buenos
Aires, and there will be international co-projects, and one day I might
go down there, i think he will create residencies and such things.
You may (if you get any time) be interested in Mariano's concept, I clip
a portion and paste below,
with best wishes
johannes

Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:51:25 +0200
From: Orm Finnendahl

Hello Johannes, hello Sher,
thanks a lot for the email and especially for the report on the
L.A. meeting.

Indeed the cross linking between the two spaces is close
to our project (and I would like to see it). For the Dresden project I
find it crucial that the feedback is doubled and would try to make the
effect of movement on the visuals or audio more immediate. The main
point for me is the split or seperated situation of communication: The
visual part of what I say is in the other room, the audio part is in
my room (and vice versa). As our mind always combines and relates the
visuals and the audio, the two sides are actually creating a totality
being stuck with controlling only one side of it. It's maybe the
opposite of being schizophrenic: I'm not two persons at once, but only
half a person in the space which I perceive.

In the ideal situation, with intentionality involved (which we
probably can't easily expect from our visitors) this could lead to a
very intense and interesting experience.
Orm

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